April 2, 2009: See updated information at the bottom of this article.
February 13, 2009: See updated information at the bottom of this article.
Many readers have been coming to The Daily Flag looking for information about the change in the U.S. Flag Code that permits military veterans not in uniform to render a hand salute. As originally written into Section 595 Section 594 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2009, the new law (Public Law No. 110-181 of the United States Code) reads:
by striking “all persons present” and all that follows through the end of the section and inserting the following: “all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.”
However, this change in the U.S. Code caused problems, because “saluting the flag” is addressed three times in the U.S. Code, and the legislative change in the law that took place in July 2008 addressed only one— TITLE 4, Chapter 1, Section 9, which is shown above.
It failed to mention Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 4 from the same Chapter 1, which speaks to saluting the flag during the Pledge of Allegiance, and from Title 36—Patriotic and National Observances, Ceremonies, and Organizations, which includes conduct toward the flag during the National Anthem.
Instruction for saluting the the U.S. Flag during the National Anthem is found in a different section of the U.S. Code from where the “Flag Code” is found, and it is sadly, frequently, overlooked. Many readers comment that they were taught to stand at attention during the National Anthem, but not taught to salute.
Senator James Inhofe (R-Oklahoma) sponsored the original legislation in the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2009, and sponsored the amendment that Congress has now passed which clarifies the legislation and brings all three sections of the U.S. Code together to say the same thing —that veterans are now permitted to render a hand salute when the U.S. flag is raised and lowered, passes in review, during the Pledge of Allegiance, and during the playing of the National Anthem.
The amendment: Sponsor of The Veteran’s Salute Provision included in Section 595 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2009, S. 3001:
-Amends Title 36 of the United States Code to allow service members not in uniform to salute the flag during the National Anthem.
-FY08 Authorization Bill modified Section 9 of Title 4, US Code, to allow members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform to render the military salute during hoisting, lowering, or passing of the flag
-While the change made to US Code Title 4 allowed our veterans and service members not in uniform to salute the flag when the flag is raised, lowered, or passing in review, it did not allow them to salute the flag during the National Anthem
With this amendment, all portions of the US Code are now consistent for veterans and military out of uniform, to salute the flag.
Countless veterans have continued to render a military salute to the flag, from the day they first raised their right hand and took an Oath of Allegiance.
This option which allows veterans to salute the flag with a military-style salute is voluntary. Many veterans are pleased by the change in legislation, and many veterans will continue to salute the flag by holding their hands over their heart. I’m glad the U.S. Code now reflects that choice.
It is my intention to update the tabs on The Daily Flag as soon as possible to reflect these changes in the U.S. Code, but I was waiting until I could copy it precisely (the legal citations, dates, et cetera) from the government web site.
Shown above: Mr. J. Satko, 83, salutes the American flag during the Veteran’s Day ceremony at Centennial Hall. Satko served in World War II as a U.S. Army plane mechanic.
Photograph circa 2005 Juneau, AK, from the Satko Family web site.
NOTICE***UPDATED INFORMATION as of February 13, 2009***NOTICE
I stopped writing new articles for The Daily Flag at the beginning of the year, but I still get many emails asking for information, or comments. I have not stayed on top of this story—veterans and out-of-uniform active-duty personnel saluting the flag—but today I received information that needs to be included.
Gen. James T. Conway, commandant of the Marine Corps issued ALMAR Number: 052/08 on December 17, 2009, which will clarify saluting for all Marines—past, present, and future.
See also: New salute rule not applicable to Marines.
NOTICE***UPDATED INFORMATION as of April 2, 2009***NOTICE
From Adm. Gary Roughead, CNO: BY CUSTOM AND TRADITION, NAVY PERSONNEL DO NOT RENDER THE HAND SALUTE WHEN OUT OF UNIFORM OR WHEN UNCOVERED; THAT HAS NOT CHANGED.
I am grateful for this change,
Thank you for writing Mr. Thompson. I was never in the military, but I can appreciate how the experience would forever change a person—and the longing to hand-salute the flag must be very deep and strong. I’m glad that you now have the opportunity.
[...] The amendment: Sponsor of The Veterans Salute Provision included in Section 595 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2009, S. 3001: -Amends Title 36 of the United States Code to allow service members not in uniform to salute the flag during the National Anthem. -FY08 Authorization Bill modified Section 9 of Title 4, US Code, to allow members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform to render the military salute during hoisting, lowering, or passing of the flag -While the change made to US Code Title 4 allowed our veterans and service members not in uniform to salute the flag when the flag is raised, lowered, or passing in review, it did not allow them to salute the flag during the National Anthem The Daily Flag Blog Archive Veterans salute the flagclarifying the change in the U.S. Code [...]
[...] UPDATE: SEE ALSO—Veterans Salute the Flag—clarifying the change in the U.S. Code [...]
Sir,
Very interesting revisions to the law (which begs the question of how well-crafted the original legislation was!), but still I don’t see guidance regarding one absolutely critical aspect of execution: while in civilian clothing (out of uniform), does the veteran / service member remove unofficial civilian headgear (such as a team baseball cap) prior to rendering the salute? Or is the civilian ballcap (or hat) left in place as the salute is rendered? I certainly see that official or semi-official headgear would be kept in place (such as VFW covers), but males traditionally remove civilian headgear during the National Anthem, and failure to do so might cause some confusion. Can you tell me if the law addresses this aspect? Also please note that some Navy-Marine Corps types will find it awkward to salute WITHOUT a cover (headgear/hat) due to unique traditions of the sea services, and may want the answer to be “leave the hat on”!
Many readers have made comments similar to yours, David, and asked the same question.
My son, who is a Navy veteran, informs me that he could never hand-salute out of uniform—period. Indoors or out, with cover or without. Not going to do it.
The problem with this change in the law—as I see it—is that the U.S. Flag Code is a document written for civilians, and compliance is voluntary. The branches of the military have their own flag manuals (and drill manuals) with instructions on flag etiquette and protocol, and compliance is compulsory, not to mention steeped in centuries of history and tradition. I don’t understand how the civilian code could over-ride military code.
The law as written, does not address the problem of covers. I don’t want to extrapolate too much, but I think it is assumed that the veterans or active-duty personnel would have their heads covered when rendering a hand-salute.
My best advice for veterans (not in uniform), retired service members (not in uniform), or any active duty military personnel (not in uniform)—is to follow the same rule for saluting the flag that he/she would follow while in uniform and on active duty, in doors or out doors. His behavior toward the flag would be exactly the same way—as if he were wearing a uniform. If he didn’t salute the flag indoors while wearing a uniform, but not wearing a cover, then (I think) he should continue to not hand-salute, but to stand at attention and/or “heart” salute.
I don’t know how the rules might change for military personnel who are in a war zone (covers on, covers off), as opposed a state-side military base or civilian gathering, but (in my opinion) whatever is or was appropriate to the location and occasion—while formerly or normally wearing a uniform—remains the best method.
Meanwhile, I have contacted Sen. Inhofe’s office to ask for more information.
Thank you for writing David.
Best Wishes,
Deborah Hendrick
This issue of saluting when “Covered or not covered;” “in civilian clothes or uniform”… is for the most part TOTAlLY misunderstood by so many of you.
You, as American Citizens, have the right to honor the flag in whatver way suits you…as long as you violate no laws against desecration of the flag…and there are too few of those.
ALL Veterans were ALWAYS given the option of saluting. Who would ever tell them not to???
The new ‘Law” changes nothing…just states what is…a common practice.
I have saluted, and will always salute my flag……in uniform or out…covered or not. I, and all my fellow veterans have earned that right.
Stop quibbling over nonsense…you always had this right……
RADM Bepko
RADM Bepko has the best answer I have heard. As a sailor in WWII I was drilled in saluting no one unless I was covered (hat on) and not to be covered indoors unless in a formation. Again I am grateful for the clarification. former ETM2C Thompson, USS Tortuga, LSD 26.
RADM Bepko is certainly correct, but the legislation nevertheless has a beneficial component – it converts a previously unregulated custom that might nevertheless have been viewed by some observers as “drama-king” or “look-at-me” behavior into a generally recognized practice.
Though I served in the 24 years in the Air Force and not the Navy, I would take the advice of a two-star (RADM) over almost any civilian and many others also.
As one post says, “I am grateful for the clarification.”
MSgt Goodrich, USAF, Ret.
@RADM John Bepko – RADM Bepko, I am a former Army officer. So former, I can’t even remember some of the rules. I am going to a pro basketball game tonight, which is onbviosly indoors. I am interested in your opinion. Is a salute appropriate indoors?
Thank you, sir.
Please tell me, are there similar saluting regulations for active, retired, and previous DoD or DA Civil Servants? They, too, are/were Government employees. Thanks.
Valerie, this is way out of my knowledge area. I will have to do some research. Many federal employees wear uniforms, and hand-salute the flag while in uniform—USDA Forest Service for example, or the Capitol police force. But I’ve never seen anything that would permit them to continue with a hand-salute in retirement.
Military personnel take an oath of enlistment: I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (So help me God.) The National Guard (Army and Air) take a slightly different oath.
Do any federal employees take a similar oath? I will have to ask.
I am so glad that the rules were changed so a veteran can salute the flag .My wife and i are proud that in our day we were both able to serve our country .This is what our family continue to do today.
Hi Chuck—My thanks to both you and your wife, for your service to our country. I’m glad you have a choice now in how you choose to salute the flag.
Best Wishes, Deborah
I am very glad they have clerified this issue. Now my husband can’t tell me not to give a military style salute.
All Government employees do take an oath of office but most of us do not wear a uniform. Also we are to treat the Flag with the same respect as the general public.
Thank you for the information you have presented and for letting a Service Connected Army Vet have her say.
@David M. Kennedy –
Hi David. Did you ever receive clearification on your question about the civilian head gear situation? At times I ware a “cowboy” hat and would like to know the rulling on this question. Presently I remove my hat and salute. I need to know which is the correct way?
Thanks for any information you may have received on this matter.
If possiable , e-mail your response to me at Blackhawk@hot.rr.com
One aspect not addressed anywhere that I could find was the issue of saluting in silence. If you opt to salute, it is MY understanding, you are at attention and therefore not speaking or singing. When our unit’s choir sang the National Anthem in uniform and outside and covered, we did not render salutes, as we were “performing” the anthem, and therefore were only in the position of attention, but not saluting. I suspect, if one opts to show respect by saluting, one then would give up the option of singing the Anthem? This doesn’t apply, of course, to the raising or lowering of the flag in most cases. Though, it would also impact the use of salute during the pledge of allegiance, in my opinion.
Does anyone know if there are any conventions that allow for speaking or singing while rendering a salute, other than commands?
Jared Handspicker
TSgt, USAF, Retired.
Hi Jared,
My recommendation for the veteran who chooses to render a military salute, is to behave the very same way you would behave if you were active-duty. Military personnel do not sing the National Anthem while saluting, nor do they join in reciting the Pledge of Allegiance while saluting. If the veteran wants to sing, or recite the pledge, then it’s probably best to salute the flag with the hand over the heart.
Thank you for writing, and Best Wishes,
Deborah Hendrick
Thank you Kay!
Just came across this and there is one situation where one doesn’t salute the flag as outlined in the change: The Commandant of the Marine Corps (CMC) has issued a clarification for Marines. Under NO circumstances – unless they are in uniform – will Marines (retired, in civilian clothing, prior service, etc.) execute a hand salute while the flag is being raised or lowered, passing by in a parade, or the National Anthem being played. If they are covered with a veteran’s type hat they will remove the cover with their right hand and place it over their heart. Inddors they will salute with their hand over their heart. Semper Fi!
Thank you so much, Tommy, for this new information. I have added links to the Commandant’s message regarding the USMC’s regulations on this topic to the article above.
Mr. grunwell: I am wondering if you and the commandant are working under the old adage of once a marine always a marine? I have read the almar of december 08 and see no mention of retired, discharged, prior service etc. Only in that belief would the Commandant have any say regarding the actions of seperated marines.
I seperated over 15 years ago and never stopped conducting myself in the presence of the National Colors as I had while active with the exception that I no longer wore the uniform.
I beileive that as long as we’re all honoring the stars and bars and not disrepecting that symbol of what we served for, what does it matter?
I am an Emergency Medical Technician/ I am sometimes in formal uniform ( dress shirt and pants etc) I will sometimes attend functions where the national anthem is played or the flag is displayed/ Is it appropriate for me to render the hand salute? I was trying to clarify this since in my opinion I am in “public Service”
Thank You
Bill—I personally believe that the hand salute is an identifying distinction that should be reserved for the military and veterans. This does not mean that a heart salute is any less honorable and respectful than a hand salute. I have spent my lifetime saluting the flag by holding my hand over my heart, and I don’t think any military person or veteran would tell me that my salute was less important or less valid than theirs.
@RADM John Bepko – I’m sorry but the law as written in the U.S. Code governing flag saluting tops a general’s opinion even if he is a Marine. I served 7 years in the Navy, Vietnam and all. I will salute in honor of MY flag any way I choose, always have, always will, regardless of covered or not, inside or out. I’m with you RADM Bepko.
The Federal civil servant oath of office, direct from the OPM website is as follows:
I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.
5 U.S.C. §3331
Unlike some Presidents, most political appointees (both parties) and most senior executive service leaders in Washington, DC, I took it seriously and battled them everyday!
@Deborah Hendrick -
@bill jordan –
In reply to Bill Jordan, EMT, about non-Federal civil servants rendering honors when in uniform:
The rendering of honors via a hand salute by non-Federal civil servants in uniform has come to be accepted. The Boy Scouts of America, etc., render a modified hand salute rather than the military salute; i.e. back of hand presented with thumb and fingers aligned. The Scouts purposefully do not use the military salute in recogniton of the honor it holds, an honor they have not earned by not serving in the military. The Armed Forces of the US salute holds very high military significance because it shows our country has never been defeated in a declared war and we have never surrendered; thus we can present the back of our hand in a military salute while most other countries must present the front of their hands, indicating they have been defeated and surrendered at some point in time. A little history for those not having been in the military or taught the history.
Another practice, draping the flag of the US over the caskets of police officers, firefighters, and other non-military, non-federal civil servants or politicians during their memorials is technically not allowed by the U.S. Code (do a search at http://uscode.house.gov/search/criteria.shtml and you will see results from 4 USC, 10 USC, 32 USC, 38 USC and others), even if they died in the line of duty. Heroic and deserving of our utmost respect they are, yet technically their caskets should have been draped by a state or municipal flag unless they were veterans.
In my mind 9/11 has changed all of that and the law should be amended to include this practice.
Federal Civil Servants are civilians, thus have not earned the privelege to render military honors. They are expected, by law in USC 4, to render honors befitting a proud citizen, standing and placing their right hand over their heart (unlike our current President when he was a candidate). However, uniformed officers, police officer, park rangers, etc., typically the sworn officers, are expected to stand at attention and render a hand salute at the appropriate occassion.
Roger That, Carl! Thank you for your service.
In regards to everyone’s comments about the Marine Commandant: With all due respect to the position, if true the incumbent Marine Commandant officially countermanded a law passed by Congress and signed by the President, he is violating the Constitution, federal statute (US Code), his oath of office, and common sense.
I remember being told in Basic Training in 1976 that as long as we had an Honorable Discharge we could wear our Class A uniform (what the Army and Air Force call their dress uniforms) at military funerals, patriotic occasions, etc. This was most recently codified in Department of Defense INSTRUCTION NUMBER 1334.01, October 26, 2005, at http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/133401p.pdf. My father, a World War II, Korean Era, and Cold War Era Army veteran was buried in his Class A uniform 16 years after he retired. I personally pinned his ribbons and medals on before we closed the casket. I shaved, got a GI haircut, and wore my Class A uniform to his funeral, barely three much too short months after I received my Honorable Discharge. Guess what Commandant; I rendered him the best damn nine-second “Slow Salute” I could upon the presentation of Taps by a full US Army Honor Guard.
I will not be buried in uniform because I served much longer as a federal civilian, so my uniform was a suit and tie. The flag that draped my father’s coffin will drape mine, then be passed to my nephew who was in the Marines. I have a plot reserved in a state veterans cemetary and I’ll get a Veteran’s Adminstration gravestone. Having my mortal remains rest with comrades, many who made the supreme sacrifice for love of their country and most probably much braver than I, will be the greatest honor I will ever receive.
Rules? Marine Commandant? I’m with the Admiral: “Stop quibbling over nonsense…you always had this right……”
I have received a message, today (02Apr09) from the CNO, date-time group 012345Z Apr 09, that tells sailors that they can only salute when in uniform. I’m not aware that the head of a service branch can contravene a federal law. The USMC has sent out the same instruction. I plan on saluting whenever I can.
Section 594 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2009,
not
Section 595 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2009
595 refers to veteran re-employment
Good Eye, Todd! Thank you for the correction.
Thank you, John, for this information. I will add this to the article.
I need to find out where it states when Reveille or Retreat is sounded , the indiviual stands at attention while indors. Please help me locate this informaition
I served in the Army over 25 years ago. I almost always rendered a hand salute to the Flag of My Country. I had been told on a couple of occasions that this was inappropriate. I would usually simply point out that as a Veteran it was my privilage to render a hand salute to my flag. I am grateful for the clarification. It is only by diligence that our counrty can survive. My best to all of you, My Eternal Gratitude to those of you that Served.
I am a Marine. I served on active duty from December 1958 thru December 1962. I will offer a hand salute to Our Colors when passing and during The Playing of The National Anthem when I am covered. When not covered I will stand at Attention and place my right hand over my left breast. Semper Fi
Every time Congress passes or changes a law confusion is usually the action for the day. Aside from the decorum and tradition many place upon the flag there are some values that as a veteran I hold higher than the letter of the law. It is my eternal remembrance for those who so courageously suffered to assure liberty and the voice we are able to express. It is for those who were my brothers and sisters who are no longer standing, but for their action neither would I. Regardless of some general’s interpretive mandate, a law maker’s stroke of a pen, or what ever may be enforced as time changes I salute those whose faces will follow me for eternity and all that have taken up arms to defend those who could not.
The USMC Commandant did not mention Marine Veterans in his message regarding the Hand Salute. May we assume Marine Veterans (former Marines who are not retired) can follow the new law and hand salute uncovered?
LtCol Harry Staszewski (former Marine)
Harry, frequently I am forced to parse every word in the U.S. Code that pertains to proper flag etiquette and protocol, and still must extrapolate the meaning on some occasions. And there are a few differences between the U.S. Flag Code, and military flag code; those distinctions cannot be overlooked. As a former Marine—a Marine who has gone before—you alone must decide what Gen. Conway meant when he wrote:
Deborah:
Thank you for your very insightful response. I have given this subject much thought. Your reply, among other considerations, have helped me make my decision.
I will continue to follow Marine Corps tradition and customs. Remember: “Once a Marine, always a Marine.” Members of the Naval Service do not salute uncovered or out of uniform.
There is one exception to this rule. It is not relevant to this discussion.
Semper Fidelis. Go Navy.
LtCol Harry Staszewski (former Marine)
Thank you Harry, for writing. This is a topic that engenders strong feelings and opinions.
I’ve read with great vigor the comments. I am glad of the clarification of the new law.
I spent over 10 years active and reserve Navy and now have over 6 years with the Air Force Reserve. Saluting traditions and customs have always been slightly different between the Navy/Marines and the Army/Air Force.
The N/MC require you never salute in uniform unless covered. Although you’re not to salute indoors, formal formations are covered and therefore saluting is required when appropriate, such as the National Anthem and award ceremonies.
The A/AF are never covered indoors. Yet, one is expected to render a salute when appropriate, such as award ceremonies and reporting to a senior officer.
All services have areas which are designated “no salute” areas for various reasons.
Veterans groups have their own official headgear and follow various saluting traditions, usually a mix of the various branches. Outdoors when covered usually results in a salute as if in a formal military uniform.
I don’t believe the higher authorities in the N/MC have the authority to countermand federal law even over a minor issue as saluting in civilian attire. As a veteran/reservist, the military has no authority over civilian practice while not in a pay status. But what qualifies as a “veteran” for one on active duty? Do you need to be past your first term? Do you have to be completely separated? Do you need to only complete 180 days of active duty? How about basic training?
I am disturbed over the comments, especially by Marines, that they will not comply, since that is how they were trained. Apparently traditions are inviolate and cannot be changed. Really. Hazing was a well-respected tradition for well over 100 years in various forms. After the Tailhook incident, sexual harassment was taken seriously to the point that the policy that the Department of the Navy adopted was also adopted by DoD. The policy adopted for federal civilian employees was just about the exact same. Eventually, the Supreme Court allowed the same provisions to apply to all citizens.
Yet, hazing still occurred. Commandant Krulak, when faced with video of a Marine getting “initiated” was so upset at the behavior that he issued a public statement that would have been fraught with obscenities had he not carefully crafted his statement in advance. I can only imagine what he said when he first saw the video.
Effectively, what we see as tradition is often not. We all took an oath which stated that we “would obey the orders of those appointed over me”. So if the law states that a veteran may salute when appropriate in civilian attire, then do it. But the law only states “may”. It is not mandatory. Each branch has slightly different customs and courtesies and is often the hardest thing for a service member to learn going from one branch to another. But they have the effect of being a lawful order.
We have members of all branches in my AF Reserve unit. One former Marine in particular still has the same military bearing and another, well, you could never guess he was a Marine. That is until you see him receive and award. The Marines, former or otherwise, always have the sharpest salutes and facing movements. It always irks me when others don’t look as sharp. I always try to look sharp. It was the way I was taught. I don’t care if my fellow Sailors or Airmen don’t look as sharp. Actually I do, but I endeavor to set the example.
I have the option to salute in a civilian status. I intend to whenever the opportunity presents itself. I had questions before, now I have an official answer.
Shame on any commanders who punish their members who salute in civilian status. New traditions, customs and courtesies sometimes take some getting used to, but if we learned anything, it is that change is constant.
I am disturbed over the comments, especially by Marines, that they will not comply, since that is how they were trained.
Dear Mr. Krawitz,
Perhaps you misunderstood—no veteran of any stripe or branch of the Armed Forces is compelled to use a military salute under any circumstance. It is strictly voluntary. A heart salute (which is how I salute the flag) is always, and will always be—an appropriate salute (so help us God). Who among us thinks it is less?
I am not a veteran, and my personal opinion is not important. But I understand and appreciate the most compelling reasoning on both sides of the debate.
I have read all of your comments, but still do not have a good answer to my question. I am a Scout Leader and have been for many years. We have a salute that is different from a military salute and have many different rules of when to salute and when not to. My question for all these honored veterans who think they have the right to salute in any clothing they wear. I see many times that fathers of kids in my troop will salute with a fishing hat or hat that says something cute on it or I have even seen a Homer Simpson hat. I truly do appreciate the great sacrifice these men and women have made for our country but feel there should be a stipulation that a non uniformed veteran retired or not, should remove a hat that is not part of the united states military dress code. I too remove my hat if it is not an official Scout uniform hat. We either put the hat in our back pocket and salute, if in uniform, or place the hat over our heart. If we allow any hat to be worn during a flag ceremony then don’t we give those who are wearing hats that have a burning flag on it the right to wear theirs? There should be a stipulation to section 594 to guard against the misuse of the rules. I agree that any man or woman who serves for our great country should be able to salute at any flag ceremony or singing of the National anthem. I just have an issue with saluting my great Flag with a dirty, tattered, led zeppelin hat on your head. We in the Boy Scouts of America are teachers of young minds and try to install in them that our veterans are to be honored and shake their hands when we see them saluting at a ball game or at a Flag Retirement Ceremony and thank them for their service to our country. These boys have to remove any hat that is not an official Scout hat, and there are only a few that are official. Should I tell them that the Veteran can salute in any hat he dam well pleases? Come on. I will continue to ask people to remove their hats for the Pledge of Allegiance to our great flag.
I appreciate your dilemma, Jim. My husband was a Scoutmaster, and my son is an Eagle Scout and a Navy veteran. I don’t speak for them, but I can speak for myself and know that they will agree with me.
You keep on doing what you are doing. Teach them what every word of the Scout Oath means. Make them understand that the Scout Law is not just for now, but is forever. Teach them to love and respect our country, our flag, and our veterans. You have a hand in teaching them how to be men. If you must reprove with one hand, be sure to praise with the other hand.
You cannot control the poor examples they see, but Scouts can be a good example for others. Encourage them to always salute the flag properly, and according to the circumstances. Most of all, advise them to keep their eyes on the flag.
For your more immediate concern, I suggest writing to Sen. James Inhofe of Oklahoma with your concerns. Perhaps it is time for him to publish an open letter to all veterans—to clarify, advise, and elaborate on the responsibility that comes with this unique legislative privilege for saluting the flag. Write to every veterans organization you can find, and encourage them to remind their members of proper decorum when saluting the flag.
I know it’s not a good answer, Jim, but it’s the only answer I have.
Jim
You are entitled to your opinion, and I too, admire your dedication to the BSA: my son earned Eagle, my daughter, Silver (Girl Scout). Should a veteran be allowed to salute in any hat they choose? You bet your smores! I’m the black sheep (or the smart one) in my family: my parents and brother were USN; I’m retired USAF. If one looks beyond the attire, they find the composure, the presence, that these men and women display when executing the hand salute, speaks volumes. I’d much rather hear a 5 yr old’s not so quiet voice, “Mommy, why is that man saluting?” (while pointing to a guy in jeans, tshirt, and BEER hat), or better yet, see the youngin follow suit, than to see and hear others continue with what they were otherwise doing during the playing of the National Anthem. My two cents
Please reread #7 above by RADM John Bepco. “Stop quibbling over nonsense…you always had this right,”
Maybe we were always able to salute but now it is official. That is what I like, Official!
I was also a Scout Master and taught them about saluting the flag and flag edicate. It was rather strange with me being the first female scout master in our troop, council, and district. I decided that if the men did not or could not then I would!
I find it interesting that since this legislation was passed that the heads of two branches of the armed forces issued orders stating that their respective branches of service would be following the standing traditions of hand-over-heart and removing of covers while not in uniform. While I was glad to see this right reinforced with recent legislation, I personally will hold to the orders issued by my respective commanders. But, as many of you have pointed out, that is my choice.
I think what is important is not the position of our hands during the National Anthem, but the position of our hearts. We veterans have served and many have bled for our nation. It does not matter to me whether my hand is at my eyebrow or over my heart, my eyes are filled with tears at the very notion of “The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.”
Honor the flag. Honor the nation. Honor those who have served. Honor those who are serving. Pass on that same honor to the “youngin’s” watching others during the Anthem. Let’s make sure we are being honorable and allow others the freedoms to choose their method of salute. That is what they served for.
Off my soap box. Thank you.
Is it proper to leave your baseball hat, or any hat other than a uniform hat on during the National Anthem or the Pledge of Alligence? Also, is it proper to leave your hat on when the flag is raised, as long as you are a veteran and you salute the flag?
I would surmise that if you salute remaining covered would make sense if one is so attired. I often wear my unit patch on a ball cap, so I guess I am already breaking the rules. However, it was customary when the men wore civilian dress hats to remove them when placing their hands over their hearts. Were as, the women would remain covered in their church acceptable bonnets and hats while covering their hearts. These days the attire and customs have all changed, and with the debauchery of the political circle that be, saluting at all may be superfluous as a mark to the nation. For me, it is in remembrance and great honor to those who are fallen and who served, suffering much, that I salute. Every time I go to the VA Clinic for my medical issues, I am moved, albeit that my needs as a woman are foreign to many there. However, but for them, I would have certainly not faired so well in my tour. I will always hold gratitude and thanks to my brothers and sisters with whom I have served. – Estelle LeClaire
Hi Pat, thank you for writing.
On ALL occasions where “saluting” is customary and proper: Civilian men who are not veterans should remove all head coverings and salute with a “heart” salute by placing the right hand over the heart. Women do not have to remove their head coverings, and should heart salute. Veterans and active-duty military personal are allowed to render a military-style salute (hand to brow) whether in uniform or out, covered or uncovered—-bearing in mind that the Marine Corp and the Navy have strongly advised against saluting out of uniform.
Thanks, Deborah
Estelle, thank you for your service, and thank you for your comments.
Did you ever get that clarification you were looking for regarding hats and salutes by veterans? I would like to give proper guidance to fellow veterans attending our local HOG chapter meetings as it regards the Pledge of Allegiance.
Hi Jerry. As you know, by legislation and through personal choice, all veterans are now permitted to render a traditional military hand salute to the flag. However, the change in the law and subsequent amendment did not specifically address conduct during the Pledge of Allegiance (I made a mistake in the article I wrote, and I think the amendment “made” a mistake because it did not specifically mention the Pledge of Allegiance. I do not believe however, that a second amendment will be written to “amend” this oversight.)
Military personnel in uniform do not recite the Pledge of Allegiance because they have taken an more encompassing oath of allegiance to the country. However, they do salute during the Pledge of Allegiance, while others recite the Pledge.
For veterans, who have been reciting the Pledge of Allegiance for a long time—while saluting the flag with a heart salute—the opportunity to now render a hand salute presents an awkward problem. The protocol for the Pledge of Allegiance is found in Section 4 of the U.S. Flag Code and reads:
Again, it comes back to a personal choice for the veteran:
1. The veteran can stand at attention, render a hand salute, and remain silent while other recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Presumably there will be enough people present who are not veterans, who will be reciting the Pledge.
2. The veteran can stand at attention, render a heart salute, and recite the Pledge of Allegiance with all the others.
There is a third choice, and that is for the veteran to do both: stand at attention, render a traditional military hand salute, and recite the Pledge of Allegiance too. I personally think it would feel very awkward to do this, but I am not a veteran.
Jerry, I searched through many veteran blogs and threads, and could not find this particular situation addressed by veterans themselves. But the solution remains the same—and it is one of those three choices I outline above.
I salute the flag to honor those who have given of themselves to ensure that liberty and freedom is an American right and heritage. Yet, it is just a flag. Aside from those who represent the heart of this people and those who have put everything on the line, and my personal commitment to the principles upon which I, my lineage, and those with whom I served to up hold that Liberty and Freedom, the whole issue of protocol is meaningless to me. Every nation ever formed had its time of gatherings where the people lined up in throngs and wave their flags, cheering and crying over their national symbol. The German people swarmed around the swastika and sung with tears in their eyes to the glory of the father land. In the streets of Paris were heard the cheers to a Napoleonic Emperor and a waving flag. Stalin and all of his thugs, as the many others who stood under the red banner also with pomp and luster garnered the adulation and thrill of the peoples mustering. Me? Well, I am more the one who could say, “Stuff it!” I remember the faces of those with whom I served, and the smart aleck smirk each of us had while we carried out our missions. The private who had his cigarettes rolled up in his shirt sleeve and just gave the lieutenant a backhanded salute as he climbed out of his carrier didn’t care about pomp. Those who had been in the field for weeks returning to post and base to discover that they were having a parade, had other ideas. A while back I was at an event out in the Northland and I was wearing my old field cap. It was something that I wore when I was doing my duty, and something that I wear when I am with others who have done theirs. You know, I was not really a great soldier. I am simply someone who grew up on a farm, joined the Army to do a job, and then went on to do other things. Anyway, the color guard came by and I still was wearing that camo’ cap when some guy told me to remove it. I just gave him the look, “the look” I used to give when I was in the military and knew my role. He understood, and we both stood there remembering the faces of those whom we valued from our past. That same silly smirk when one of the crew would smuggle a case of beer and other goodies to share with the squad. A very special family……
My point? This country is about people, people who care for other people more than they care for themselves; or at least that is how it used to be!
Estelle : )
After 26 years of paying honor to our flag in uniform with a hand salute it feel right to keep doing after retirement. Great job!
Ms. Hendrick -
Thank you for all your work on this issue. It obviously is one one which many have profound feelings, including myself.
Irrespective of where one comes out on this issue for Veterans, there is a movement afoot to develop a simple, easily recognizable means of showing gratitude to those in the military serving our country.
Here is the information I have on this, and a link to a touching illustrative video:
This is pretty neat…..(30 second video)… Have you ever seen one of our
military walking past you and wanted to convey to them your thanks, but
weren’t sure how, or it felt awkward?
Recently, a gentleman from Seattle created a gesture which could
be used to express your thanks and has started a movement to get
the word out..
Please everybody take just a moment to watch….. The Gratitude Salute
…and then forward it to your friends!
THEN START USING THE SIGN.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSfFYxSdKdo
Thank you for sending this information. I need to make a post with it. Best Wishes, Deborah
As a retired U.S. Army veteran I salute the flag proudly, both indoors & out, during the playing of the National Anthem as well as the Pledge of Allegiance. I do this with pride, covered, indoors or out. We knew what the requirements (privileges) were then, so why the hell would we want to change them now, thanks to Senator James Inhofe. If questioned, I will respond, and then inform you (if you are a veteran) of your right (or requirement) to salute. Again, thank you Senator Imhofe.
CSM Jon Reitz (Ret)
Since I left the military I have always held my hand over my heart for the flag and then, at the end, rendered a salute to her. I did this because I had been taught to only salute when in uniform. I’m glad to hear of this change since I feel that a crisply rendered salute shows my respect to my nation and my pride in having served her. I’m not doing this to get people to look at me – just to let my flag know that I still support her.
How does this legislation apply to Marine veterans? According to Marine Corps regulations, while on Active Duty and not in uniform, a Marine will stand at the position of attention, with their right hand placed above their heart (headgear removed). So does this legislation authorize Marine Corps veterans to render a hand salute? The question goes further due to Marine Corps regulations requiring any Marine to NOT render a salute unless they were covered (wearing headgear) or under arms. Since most Marine veterans will no longer be under arms, this raises the question about how this legislative change will impact us.
Any thoughts?
Respectfully,
Greg McNeil.
gpmcneil@gmail.com
Even though after leaving the service and being out of uniform one may feel they are still part of the body, they are not. That is one is not active, at duty, or under UCMJ, and again is a civilian. Hence, military regulation is not applicable. As a matter of honor for having served, a veteran is allowed to salute as was the custom within the service, but allowed to do so as a civilian in civilian attire.
Again, I speak for myself, as I was often found bending the rules, but I salute those who I remember and those who have paid the most for those of us who enjoy Liberty and the Freedom to use our voice.
Estelle
Hi Greg. I apologize for the delay in getting to your question.
As a veteran, you have been given congressional authority to salute if you want to. As a Marine veteran—if you want—you can voluntarily choose to follow Gen. James T. Conway, commandant of the Marine Corps who wrote:
Greg, I encourage you to read all the comments that have been left here. I think they will help you reach a decision.
Has a law been passed stating a veteran can salute the flag with hat on inside a building .
Robert, I have not been actively following the ‘veterans saluting’ news, but I am not aware of any new laws regarding changes in saluting protocol.
Deborah, As ex-military I have wanted to salute the flag while in civilian clothes. I was told that was forbidden when I was discharged. Saluting the flag, to me, is the highest honor I can pay to the flag an all the former military, living and dead. I am so glad now to know that it is permitted; I plan to do it regularly.
Few understand the pride, honor and dignity felt and displayed by our military personnel, active and non-active. The flag is part of that, indivisible like our nation.
I am very proud to have service my country honorably and would do it again in a heartbeat.
Harold (Pappy) Harmon
U.S.A.F. 1959-1963
With regards to the discussion of being “covered” or “uncovered” – as a female, there are very few occasions when I find myself wearing a cover, especially when I would be attending an honored event like our upcoming Veterans Day celebration. The very fact that the the regulation assumes veterans are wearing civilian clothes means that a cover would be strictly optional. I do not feel that should prevent me from being able to render a salute to the flag that I served honorably for 14 years. So you can bet that I will be saluting at our outdoor flag raising this Wednesday!
If one reviews the code at the very beginning of this string of comments it is clear as to Uniform and Civilian attaire, and options. Key word is “may” that is used in the prescription of tendering a salute and or hand over heart. If not a veteran, hence no salute, and out of uniform, it is hat at left shoulder and hand at heart. Again, as a woman veteran, I salute, and it is to those with whom we have served with that I honor. Moreover, the principles and liberty that has come at so high a price.
Side note: TN has now issued a Women Veteran license plate. One now adorns my bumper and is drawing a lot of attention.
Estelle:)
Sure is a lot of reading over something ment to be so simple. I spent time in two branches and served on active duty for 23 years. When on active duty, I followed the regulations of the Branch I was serving at the time. The purpose for changing the code / law was to let (veterans) know that by serving their country in the United States Military, they have earned the right to render a military salute during the raising, lowering or passing of my flag, during the National Anthem, or during the Pledge of Allegiance. As written the salute given by a veteran (not currently in the service) is while covered or un-covered in any type or style of clothing. Having the right doesn’t mean you have to. Either way, salute or hand over the heart is ment to show respect and is accepted as such. It is the individuals decision. As far as what the commander of your Branch of Service decides, that is also up to you the veteran.
As for me, my President signed into law my right to salute and that is exactly what I am going to do.
If a veteran is showing respect for his flag, his country or his comrade, only a bean counter question it.
3 years USMC, 20 years Army
18 years Federal Law Enforcement
1 year playing golf and fishing.
I was a member of the Air Force for just under 5 months and was Medically discharged due to an injury while in training. According to the Military, I am unable to claim Veteran Status because I was not in for a minimum of 6 months. My question is, Am I permitted to SALUTE the flag as a Veteran is now allowed?
Thanks
Ron, your question is beyond my scope of authority. All I can advise is let your heart and conscience be your guide. However, many veterans read here—maybe they can counsel you. Best Wishes, Deborah
Ron, This is a tough question; but, I believe that you can salute the flag even though you served only 5 months honorably. The medical discharge should not change that.
It was always my understanding that we only had to complete Boot Camp to be considered as having served in the military. Maybe someone else can speak to this issue.
Anyway, I would suggest you let your heart dictate your actions. You obviously feel a lot of pride in what you were able to accomplish. Besides, the salute is a way of rendering respect to our flag.
Good luck,
Pappy Harmon
U.S.A.F. 1959-1963
As a former Korean USN vet, who has served only four years from 1952 to 1956, and Honorably Discharged, It has always been my wish to be able to render a hand salute at the passing, raising and setting of the colors and the Pledge of Allegiance and the National Anthem. Seeing that it is MY RIGHT to do so, I WILL render the hand salute at every applicable time that it would be appropriate as if I were still in uniform. My thanks to one and all who have served, for my Freedom. Thank You
Dan Healy, USN ADE2,
Korean Conflict
As an Army veteran, it is indeed a pleasure as well as an honor to render a hand salute. Our years of sacrifice to this great country afforded us this right. In our hearts, minds, and spirits; we will always be a part of the Armed Forces, for life.
In this season, we might think of those who have served a very short time, and never survived basic traning or AIT. It is an honor to answer the call, regardless of the action one might have endured. No Soldier or frontline Warfighter would have survived had not others been faithful to deliver the necessary supplies and support. Likewise, in this time of year we should remember our Brothers (And Sisters) who are struggling in uniform, as well as those who are now civilian. Moreover, especially those who returned and have never been able to reengage; broken, maimed, and alone. They living in less than deserving care, under bridges and roaming the streets unable to let go, or move on; in many cases without healthcare. To all, we can give honor and hopefully relief. Estelle:)
[...] a press release issued in 2008 by the Department of Veterans Affairs and another from a group that monitors issues related to the flag. The sites explain the change and provide reference to the specific federal [...]